Some Fruits of Solitude By William Penn (1682) Part 12: Right Marriage (79-87)

 Some Fruits of Solitude By William Penn (1682) Part 12: Right Marriage (79-87)

Bonus: 

I don't think I've ever actually heard this song. Just club mixes and stuff.

Summary: Marry for the right reasons. Being horny and money are bad reasons.

Commentary: 

79: Only marry for love, but make sure you love good things.

80: Otherwise, you'll go cheat on your spouse.

81: Enjoy your affections.

82/83: Love grows in time, lust diminishes.

84: Don't marry for money, you won't be happy.

85/86: Men are more careful with the breeding of their animals than children.

87: Worship God, not money.

Should've saved this set for Valentine's Day. Pretty solid all around.

Closing out The Enchiridion

The long and short of The Enchiridion is that it's a (translation) of a summary of someone else's lectures. On the whole, it's mostly good advice, but it's all filtered however much and doesn't necessarily have a lot of depth. The main question, in terms of rating/inclusion, is if there's a better short/historic Stoic intro. Meditations is coming up and could fill a similar niche. I'm going to give it a very tentative 3/5. Good enough to include, but not mind blowing, and we'll see where it goes from there. I'll close out with my favorite section:

This is the position and character of a layman: He never looks for either help or harm from himself, but only from externals. This is the position and character of the philosopher: He looks for all his help or harm from himself.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928)

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 42-

Bonus: 

The exact words of the text.

Summary: Actions speak louder than words.

Commentary: 

42: Don't get mad if people speak badly about you.

43: "Everything has two handles"

44: Being richer or better in one area than someone doesn't make you better overall.

45: Don't assume people are bad at something just because they do it differently.

46: Don't show off your philosophical-ness, but live life well.

47: Become a good person for yourself, not to show off for others.

48: The difference between a layman and an improver is that the layman looks outside, while the improver doesn't judge others and controls himself.

49: It's okay to get help to understand something. What's important is living by the principles you learn from it.

50. What people say about you is not under your control. Living by your principles is.

51. Stop waiting and start doing. (Kind of flipping from the other day.)

52. Doing is more important than reasoning.

53. 

Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,

To that goal long ago to me assigned.

I’ll follow and not falter; if my will

Prove weak and craven, still I’ll follow on.

“Whoso has rightly with necessity complied,

We count him wise, and skilled in things divine.”

“Well, O Crito, if so it is pleasing to the gods, so let it be.”

“Anytus and Meletus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me.”

This day seems more clustered than some of the others. Almost all about the importance of having and living up to principles.

MADE IT! 

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 34-41

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 34-41 

Bonus: 

Epictetus on relationships

Summary: Girls are only good for sex, and don't let them forget it.

Commentary: 

34. Sleep on it.

35. If doing something is right, do it openly. If it's wrong, don't do it at all.

36. Don't be greedy.

37. Don't pretend to be something you're not. You'll fail at it, and also waste time you could've been doing something you're good at.

38. Be as careful about moral harm as physical.

39. Take care of your body and don't buy excessive ornamentations.

40. Make sure 14 year women know that they're only good for being sexy, but modest and discrete. 

41. Focus on your mind more than your body.

Obviously, 40 is the one to pull here:

Immediately after they are fourteen, women are called “ladies” by men. And so when they see that they have nothing else but only to be the bed-fellows of men, they begin to beautify themselves, and put all their hopes in that. It is worth while for us to take pains, therefore, to make them understand that they are honoured for nothing else but only for appearing modest and self-respecting.

    My summary is marginally hyperbolic, but I think mostly accurate. I've seen some interpretations saying that it's trying to say that men calling women ladies makes them think they're only good for sex, have to act that way, etc., but I think that's trying to shoe horn a more modern view into it, due to the third sentence. It's not, "it's worth while for us to help them be more complete people" or "it's a shame they're only respected for being sexy." Instead, it reads more as making sure they don't get all uppity and think they're good for other things.

Honestly, seems kind of out of place. I could see, "Don't be distracted by Jezebel Foreheads" or whatever. Still nasty, but on theme. This just feels like a kind of random digression. Maybe Epictetus had a larger point (possibly one of the earlier meanings, or just women are bad at Stoicism?) and this is just what Errian took from the lecture? Disadvantages of reading the translation of the notes of the lecture instead of the original.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) #33

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) #33

Bonus: 

Pretty good speech, Denzel.

Summary: Ben Franklin is an American Epictetus

Commentary: 

33. This one is a large, and not entirely related, collection.

1. Decide what kind of person you want to be and stick to it.

2. Don't talk too much. (Almost any is too much.)

3. "Small minds discuss people; average minds discuss events; great minds discuss ideas."

4. Don't laugh too much/loud.

5. Don't take oaths.

6. Don't go to basic entertainment. If you do, make sure it doesn't rub off on you.

7. Be thrifty in ALL things. (Food, drink, possessions, slaves, clothes.)

8. Don't be a whore, but also don't boast about not being a whore.

9. When someone gossips about you be pithy instead of offended.

10. Don't be obnoxious at public shows. Don't give them any reasons to grease the poles.

11. If you go to a reading, be respectable.

12. Don't be a fanboy when you meet important people, but always do your duty when you need to work with them.

13. Don't be boastful.

14. Don't be a clown or swear. Scold (or at least frown at) people who do.

This is a weird one. First off, the length. It's something like 10% of the entire Enchiridion. It's sort of themed together about how to present yourself in public, but even then it's a mix of both dos and do nots in no particular order.

I can't find any confirmation that says Ben Franklin read the Enchiridion, but the influence seems pretty obvious. The virtues closely mirror several of the points.

Temperance: 7

Silence: Most of them

Resolution: 5

Frugality: 7

Industry: Several of them, especially 7

Sincerity: Several of them, especially 14

Moderation: 7

Cleanliness: 6

Tranquility: 9

Chasity: 7

Really, 7 is kind of a stand in for the whole thing.

As far as advice goes, two things stand out to me here. First, there's a lot of dismissal of base/common entertainment. I think there's line here. On the one hand, I wouldn't want to go to a dog fight or something. But, I don't think I'm a worse person if I take 15 minutes to read a crappy comic book or whatever some days. Intentionality in media consumption is a big part of this project. I want to read better stuff (that's why I shifted this blog back to T5FSOB instead of rambling about DooM so much) and I do think that that helps me be a better person. I try, when I get stuck refeshing reddit for the 12th time or watching my 5th crappy Youtube video in a row, to go and read a bit of Fruits of Solitude or something instead. But I don't think you only need to consume the top 10% or whatever of all media. DooM probably won't make me a better person, but I do think that sometimes you just need to have some fun. I can play it when I'm tired and just want to plop down on the couch for a while. If I tried to play Chess or some other "serious" game I'd just suck at it and have to try not to get frustrated. A good opportunity to practice stoicism, but hardly helpful. Don't wallow in the slop, but a little media junk food is okay from time to time. I think most media, if you look at it the right way, still has something to teach us. It might be teaching you what to avoid (don't write like Stephanie Meyer or whatever) but there's still an opportunity for introspection and learning there.

The other is that, apparently vulgarity is so bad it's the one thing you're allowed to criticize/make a nasty face at. I see some translations that render it as "vicious talk" which I think makes a little more sense. If someone makes a gross joke, you don't need to get bent out of shape about it. If someone is threatening/slandering someone, you should probably call them out.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 30-32

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 30-32

Bonus: 

The best scene of all time.

Summary: When the coin is in mid air you'll know what you want.

Commentary: 

30: If a relationship isn't rewarding, do what you need to do and don't stress over it.

31. You don't know what the gods think is good or bad. We show what we worship by what we value.

32. When you go to divination, remember that you know what is right and wrong. 

My battery is about to die, so short one today.

1. I fucking love the pillar scene.

2. The coin in mid air thing isn't exactly what 32 is saying. It's more, "don't go to get divination to try to get out of what you know you should do," but I think the idea of recognizing what we want when we ask a question is more applicable much of the time.

It reminds me of an article I read once about people figuring out the solution to a problem as they were writing out a post to ask other people about it. Sometimes you just need a slightly different perspective. This is how tarot cards work, in my opinion. The Magician or whatever doesn't magically jump out (though I always do read jumpers) but it's mostly just a way to get you to look at something from a slightly outside perspective.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928): 29

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928): 29

Bonus: 

Kind of the opposite of this.

Summary: You sure you wanna do that?

Commentary: 

29: Think about what you'll need to do to achieve your goals. Only take them up if you're willing to do your work, otherwise you're just wasting your time playing.

I'm just going to drop the whole thing in here, because I think it's one of the more interesting ones and worth talking about a little bit.

In each separate thing that you do, consider the matters which come first and those which follow after, and only then approach the thing itself. Otherwise, at the start you will come to it enthusiastically, because you have never reflected upon any of the subsequent steps, but later on, when some difficulties appear, you will give up disgracefully. Do you wish to win an Olympic victory? So do I, by the gods! for it is a fine thing. But consider the matters which come before that, and those which follow after, and only when you have done that, put your hand to the task. You have to submit to discipline, follow a strict diet, give up sweet cakes, train under compulsion, at a fixed hour, in heat or in cold; you must not drink cold water, nor wine just whenever you feel like it; you must have turned yourself over to your trainer precisely as you would to a physician. Then when the contest comes on, you have to “dig in” beside your opponent, and sometimes dislocate your wrist, sprain your ankle, swallow quantities of sand, sometimes take a scourging, and along with all that get beaten. After you have considered all these points, go on into the games, if you still wish to do so; otherwise, you will be turning back like children. Sometimes they play wrestlers, again gladiators, again they blow trumpets, and then act a play. So you too are now an athlete, now a gladiator, then a rhetorician, then a philosopher, yet with your whole soul nothing; but like an ape you imitate whatever you see, and one thing after another strikes your fancy. For you have never gone out after anything with circumspection, nor after you had examined it all over, but you act at haphazard and half-heartedly.

In the same way, when some people have seen a philosopher and have heard someone speaking like Euphrates (though, indeed, who can speak like him?), they wish to be philosophers themselves. Man, consider first the nature of the business, and then learn your own natural ability, if you are able to bear it. Do you wish to be a contender in the pentathlon, or a wrestler? Look to your arms, your thighs, see what your loins are like. For one man has a natural talent for one thing, another for another. Do you suppose that you can eat in the same fashion, drink in the same fashion, give way to impulse and to irritation, just as you do now? You must keep vigils, work hard, abandon your own people, be despised by a paltry slave, be laughed to scorn by those who meet you, in everything get the worst of it, in honour, in office, in court, in every paltry affair. Look these drawbacks over carefully, if you are willing at the price of these things to secure tranquillity, freedom and calm. Otherwise, do not approach philosophy; don’t act like a child—now a philosopher, later on a tax-gatherer, then a rhetorician, then a procurator of Caesar. These things do not go together. You must be one person, either good or bad; you must labour to improve either your own governing principle or externals; you must work hard either on the inner man, or on things outside; that is, play either the rôle of a philosopher or else that of a layman.

So, I see two big things here:

1. Think about what you will actually have to do to achieve your goals. Epictetus's example is winning the Olympics. You'd have to train hard, give up junk food, etc.

Obviously, this is reasonable advice. You can't expect to run a marathon or whatever if you can't even jog to the end of the block, and you probably won't do that if you're downing a 40 and a case of Twinkies a day.

But what I think is more interesting is the contrast with the advice I often see today. What I usually see is "JUST GO DO THE THING! STOP OVERTHINKING! DON'T SPEND A YEAR PREPPING! DO IT!"

The answer is broadly somewhere in the middle (you have to actually try the thing, but you do need to devote effort) but it's just interesting to see something close to the opposite of the "normal" advice.

2. The comparison to kids playing at things.

On the one hand, fair. Kids do rotate through things they want to be pretty quickly. On the other, I think, even as an adult, "playing" and trying stuff has value. How are you supposed to know if you want to try a second career if you never try it? To say nothing of a hobby or whatever. Nothing wrong with an adult trying 5 or 10 things before settling on dedicating themselves to becoming a great chili cooker or whatever.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 22-28

 The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 22-28

Bonus: 

I hate this movie, and this wasn't even the clip I wanted.

Summary: Be true to yourself, then worry about everything else.

Commentary: 

22: If you're going to study philosophy, remember your principles. Also, people will make fun of you.

23. Be a philosopher for yourself, not for other people.

24. Take care of yourself and your business, and be honest. This is better than trying to make a big show of gaining honors.

25. If you want people to ask you to do things, make sure you give them what they want. If you don't want to give them that, don't feel bad about not being invited.

26. Think about how you'd feel if something happened to you before telling others how to respond to it.

27. The universe does not exist for evil.

28. You don't let people you dislike control your body. Don't let them control your mind/feelings either.

Some of these were a lot longer today. Mostly good advice.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 8-21

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 8-21

Bonus:

#17

Summary: Focus on what is under your control. (These are gonna get repetitive.)

Commentary: 

8. Don't wish to have a great day, wish to have the day you're going to have. (I had a teacher that liked to say this. I think it's silly.)

9. Only let things limit you in the ways they actually do, not by discouraging you.

10. Before you face a problem, think about what you need to use to overcome it.

11. You don't "lose" things, you "give them back." (This is like my uncle who wouldn't let us say characters died in video games. They just lost their turn.)

12. Better to have peace of mind/a clean conscious than to worry about physical things.

13. Get comfortable looking like an idiot sometimes. Admit you don't know things.

14. Nothing is perfect/eternal. Focus on only things you can control. Your desires are your master.

15. Wait your turn, take things politely, decline what you don't want.

16. Number 5, but for other people. Be sympathetic, but not empathetic.

17. All the world's a stage. (Also, play your own part, not someone else's)

18. Don't believe in bad luck.

19. If you control the outcome, you can never lose.

20. Number 5, but for when people are mean to you. 

21. Memento mori.

In general, a little repetitive, but mostly good advise.

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928) 1-7

The Enchiridion by Epictetus translated by William Abbot Oldfather (1928)

Bonus: 

Not the same translation

Summary: Worry only about what you can control.

Commentary: I'm slightly concerned that I've now put myself in two "sand" style works at the same time. I'm going to try to get through The Enchiridion simply because it's a lot shorter than Some Fruits of Solitude (about 15 pages vs 46, and ~50 topics instead of ~100). If need be, I'll relegate it to the next sand and move on to The New Atlantis, since Meditations and Bacon's essays are both also mostly short bits.

In the end, I went with Oldfather's translation. I bounced around reading different sections and decided I liked it best. I make no claim to its scholarly qualities, but it seems not excessively paraphrased and is pleasant enough to read. Since the whole thing is short, I can always go read another "better" translation better if need be.

I'll do the same summary style here as I did for Some Fruits...

1. You only have true control over your own mind. Knowing what you do and don't control is important. Focus on what you can control, and you'll have no problems. Focus too much on things out of your control and you may not get them and be disappointed. Everything outside yourself is just an impression, and not something you should worry about controlling.

2. Don't get mad at things that are out of your control. (Kind of a repeat of the second half of one)

3. Remember the impermanence of the things you care about.

4. When you go to do something, keep in mind both what you want and the other things that might go along with it. Remember that you may be jostled or disturbed, and this is okay.

5. This is probably the most famous stoic-ism, so let's pull the whole thing:

It is not the things themselves that disturb men, but their judgements about these things. For example, death is nothing dreadful, or else Socrates too would have thought so, but the judgement that death is dreadful, this is the dreadful thing. When, therefore, we are hindered, or disturbed, or grieved, let us never blame anyone but ourselves, that means, our own judgements. It is the part of an uneducated person to blame others where he himself fares ill; to blame himself is the part of one whose education has begun; to blame neither another nor his own self is the part of one whose education is already complete.

You're upset by your reaction to things, not the things themselves.

6. Be proud only of your own work, not of good fortune that comes to you.

7. Focus on the important things, and be ready to give everything else up.

Right now, I think it walks the line between, "don't sweat the small stuff" and organized depression, "if nothing matters, I can't get upset". I'll see which way it falls. 

Some Fruits of Solitude Part 11: Apparel (73-78)

 Some Fruits of Solitude

Bonus: 

Look at her forehead!

Summary: Don't waste your money on fancy clothes. Give to the poor. Don't be a JEZEBEL'S FOREHEAD!

Commentary: 

73. Excessive clothes are a waste. The rich have enough clothes for everyone.

74. Pick clothes for yourself, not others. Simple and modest is best.

75. If they're clean and warm, that's good enough. Spending more than that is money that could go to the poor.

76. It's better to be beautiful on the inside.

77. The more modest the clothes, the more beautiful on the inside.

78. It's a shame inner beauty is rare and JEZEBEL'S FOREHEAD is common. Lust is an impediment to virtue.

Jezebel's Forehead is what we should call being slutty now. All in all, this is a fairly solid list.

Topic List: Ignorance, Education, Luxury, Inconsideration, Disappointment And Resignation, Murmurs, Censoriousness, Bounds of Charity, Frugality or Bounty, Discipline, Industry, Temperance

Picking an Enchiridion Translation

 I decided to start out by looking at the first entry in Enchiridion for each of the translators to see if I could start narrowing it down.

Walton:

Some things we can control, some we can’t. We can control our attitudes, opinions, goals and desires – choices of our own. We can’t control health, wealth, fame or power – things we can’t have by choosing them.

I don't like the use of health here, since it is (to an extent) under our control. Eat right, sleep well, exercise, etc. I don't know if that's a quirk of this particular translation or in the original. On the other hand, I'm not sure I believe we have a ton of control over our desires.

Oldfather:

Some things are under our control, while others are not under our control. Under our control are conception, choice, desire, aversion, and, in a word, everything that is our own doing; not under our control are our body, our property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything that is not our own doing.

Adds an entire extra category (aversion) and switches health to body, which is a bit better. 

Matheson:

Of all existing things some are in our power, and others are not in our power. In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing. Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing

Pretty similar to Oldfather.

Long:

Of things some are in our power, and others are not. In our power are opinion, movement toward a thing, desire, aversion (turning from a thing); and in a word, whatever are our own acts: not in our power are the body, property, reputation, offices (magisterial power), and in a word, what­ever are not our own acts. 

That's some impressively weird construction with all the parenthesis and colons.

Rolleston:

Of things that exist, some depend upon ourselves, others do not depend upon ourselves. Of things that depend upon ourselves are our opinions and impulses, desires and aversions, and, briefly, all that is of our own doing. Of things that do not depend upon ourselves are the body, possessions, reputation, civil authority, and, briefly, all that is not of our own doing.

Kinda wordy.

Higginson:

There are things which are within our power, and there are things which are beyond our power. Within our power are opinion, aim, desire, aversion, and, in one word, whatever affairs are our own. Beyond our power are body, property, reputation, office, and, in one word, whatever are not properly our own affairs.

Carter:

Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.

These two are pretty samey.

I'm going to start by eliminating Walton (overlaps with Carter and Higginson, but seems less accurate), Long (weird construction), and Rolleston (wordy.)

That leaves: Oldfather, Matheson, Higginson, and Carter. They pair off nicely, so I'll read the next bit for each pair and go from there.

Oldfather:

Furthermore, the things under our control are by nature free, unhindered, and unimpeded; while the things not under our control are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, and not our own. Remember, therefore, that if what is naturally slavish you think to be free, and what is not your own to be your own, you will be hampered, will grieve, will be in turmoil, and will blame both gods and men; while if you think only what is your own to be your own, and what is not your own to be, as it really is, not your own, then no one will ever be able to exert compulsion upon you, no one will hinder you, you will blame no one, will find fault with no one, will do absolutely nothing against your will, you will have no personal enemy, no one will harm you, for neither is there any harm that can touch you.

Again, this seems kind of hair-splittish that our desires, etc. are totally free while our body and property are servile.

Matheson:

Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammelled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others. Remember then that if you imagine that what is naturally slavish is free, and what is naturally another’s is your own, you will be hampered, you will mourn, you will be put to confusion, you will blame gods and men; but if you think that only your own belongs to you, and that what is another’s is indeed another’s, no one will ever put compulsion or hindrance on you, you will blame none, you will accuse none, you will do nothing against your will, no one will harm you, you will have no enemy, for no harm can touch you.

I think I like Oldfather's a bit better (grieve vs mourn) but they're pretty similar.

Higginson:

Now, the things within our power are by nature free, unrestricted, unhindered; but those beyond our power are weak, dependent, restricted, alien. Remember, then, that if you attribute freedom to things by nature dependent, and take what belongs to others for your own, you will be hindered, you will lament, you will be disturbed, you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you take for your own only that which is your own, and view what belongs to others just as it really is, then no one will ever compel you, no one will restrict you, you will find fault with no one, you will accuse no one, you will do nothing against your will; no one will hurt you, you will not have an enemy, nor will you suffer any harm.

Overall, I like this a lot better than the other pair. Dependent vs servile seems better. In general the whole thing is a big cleaner.

Carter:

The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed.

Again, similar, but Higginson's phrasing is cleaner and a bit more active.

So, for the time being, I'm going to focus on Higginson, Carter, and Oldfather as my base 3 (since that's how many the site supports at a time) and narrow it from there.

"The Golden Sayings of Epictetus" AKA The Enchiridion (~125)

 "The Golden Sayings of Epictetus" is an adaptation of The Enchiridion, ("Manual") which is, itself a distillation of his speeches assembled by student Arrian. It's Christianified somewhat, and is generally considered a mediocre at best version.

This is the first time I'll be fully diverging from the edition of a text in T5FSOB. Instead, I'm going to use this website.

As much as possible, I try to use open source/public domain sources where possible. This is for two reasons:

1. I'm a cheap bastard, and that saves me from having to buy stuff for the blog (ignore all the books I have bought for it.)

2. I think they're valuable and try to promote/support them as much as possible. 

The versions available are:

1. The original (Greek). This doesn't really seem super useful, unless I want to try to retranslate a specific section.

2. Carter: Popular, generally considered fairly accurate, but very readable.

3. Higginson: Partially descended from the Carter.

4. Walton: Adapted from Carter and Higginson.

5. Long: The "traditional" choice.

6. Matheson: Does not appear to be super popular.

7. Oldfather: Appears relatively respected.

I'll take the first couple days to compare the various versions, and hopefully lock in on one to read for the rest. I don't think I want to dance around 4 or 5 for the whole thing.

Closing Out Plato

So, that wraps up Plato. I think I've pretty much said how I feel. He/Socrates don't really advance proper arguments, so much as vague assertions with no basis. Socrates can't kill himself cause he belongs to the gods. He doesn't prove that he belongs from the gods, or that belonging to the gods prevents him from killing himself, just go with it. Likewise, he can't escape because loyalty to the state is such a high virtue (but you can still go around trolling apparently), but he doesn't prove that. He also could've been loyal and asked to get exiled or something, but that's beyond him. The dialogue format is atrocious for communicating them, both unwieldy and awkward sounding. 

In general, I've never liked Plato. My Intro to Philosophy course in undergrad basically just consisted of the prof going, "You're all idiots in a cave!" at us and then leaving to go smoke weed in his office while we took tests with typos on them.

And that kind of sums up my experience with Plato here in these readings. I guess I'm just too clueless to understand how Socrates is so fucking brilliant while he goes around bothering people and then gets himself killed in the most pointless way possible. If I was assembling a 5FSOB style collection, I might include Crito as an example, being both shorter and slightly less terrible than the others. He's a major figure, so some representation seems reasonably, though not a third of a book.

If I was doing excerpts, ala GW2TGB I'd probably pull "The Cave" out of Republic. I reread it tonight. It's probably the least objectionable Plato I've read. It's still pretentious claptrap, but at least it has a coherent thesis.

Plato 1/5.

Plato's Crito (~400 BC) translated by Benjamin Jowett

Plato's Crito

Bonus: 

Socrates mix tape.

Summary: Socrates explains his suicide by cop and is a deadbeat dad.

Commentary: Officially DNFing Phaedo after reading another page and wanting to gouge my eyes out, so I'm going to Crito which I should've actually read first. I remember thinking Phaedo seemed too long, probably because I checked the Crito page count (a very manageable 15ish). I decided to plow through it all in one go. Seems more likely I'll enjoy or get something out of it this way. When I reviewed it last year, I mostly panned it as less bad than the others. Not a great start.

I learned from this that Socrates had a wife and kids. Can you imagine being his wife? You husband just goes around harassing people all day, not helping out around the house or supporting the family. Ugh.

Beyond that, some super cursory tyranny of the majority and black and white thinking (along with making sure you listen to your designated master, not anyone else.) I can't believe people thought he was building a youth corruption cult...

Anyway, Socrates basically says that if you believe in justice you have to accept the decisions of the state, and thus he can't run away from his death sentence. Considering the fact that he basically argued himself into his death sentence, it's pretty goofy. He points out that he might travel to and be accepted in other states, but didn't suggest exile as his punishment? This whole thing is just one long suicide by cop. (Also, why is the state's justice perfect and absolute, but that's less fun.)

Plato's Phaedo (~400 BC) translated by Benjamin Jowett Part 3

   Plato's Phaedo

Bonus:

It's a playbook!

Summary: Blah blah Socrates blah blah.

Commentary: So, as I've established however many times, these dialogues suck. The writing is clunky, the arguments are lazy, the construction is awkward. I'm probably going to just DNF Phaedo and I doubt I'll get very far on the others.

But, I think I know the reason why. Plato is trying to write a play. He's doing a terrible job (why would you have a play where one character talks as other characters for 20 minutes?) but that's why they suck. Beyond that, the philosophy is still more "vaguely claimed thesis with no evidence" that's not really worth commenting on, since I'd just be copying the same "prove it" every 5 lines.

Plato's Phaedo (~400 BC) translated by Benjamin Jowett

  Plato's Phaedo

Bonus: 

Socrates would hit the dog.

Summary: Bad arguments; written badly

Commentary: 

I admit the appearance of inconsistency in what I am saying; but there may not be any real inconsistency after all. There is a doctrine whispered in secret that man is a prisoner who has no right to open the door and run away; this is a great mystery which I do not quite understand. Yet I too believe that the gods are our guardians, and that we are a possession of theirs. Do you not agree?

Yes, I quite agree, said Cebes.

And if one of your own possessions, an ox or an ass, for example, took the liberty of putting himself out of the way when you had given no intimation of your wish that he should die, would you not be angry with him, and would you not punish him if you could? 

Certainly, replied Cebes.

As someone who had a cat run away, I can assure you that the first thing I would do if I found him would not be punish him. Some people would argue that this is intentionally flawed logic, or maybe some kind of satire/irony. I feel like if you construct Socrates as the uber-philosopher and then make him sound like an idiot it's shit writing.